Responding to provisional conclusions

[NautiusMaximus]

I have recently made a complaint to the LGO (Coventry office), and have received a letter stating their provisional conclusions, which, surprise surprise, are entirely in favour of the council. I now have until 13 July to respond to their provisional conclusions. I wonder if anyone has any tips on what I might say?

The details of the complaint are as follows. Earlier this year, as a result of an oversight, we were late paying an instalment of our business rates (by about 4 weeks). The first communication we received from the council (London Borough of Merton) was a summons to the magistrates court telling us we would be fined £170.

I was gobsmacked that the council used a summons without any warning. We paid the overdue instalment the same day, and got in touch with the council asking that they withdraw the summons. They refused. After much correspondence, it turns out that they claim to have sent a reminder letter when we were late (by about 3 weeks) with an instalment last October, although we never received it. You may remember there was a postal strike at that time, so that's not surprising. Apparently the law requires them to send a reminder, but it doesn't require them to take any reasonable steps to satisfy themselves that the letter was delivered, so the council probably have been compliant with the strict letter of the law.

When we arrived in court, we met 2 employees of the council who did their best to persuade me not to appear in front of the magistrate, telling me that it was a waste of everyone's time because the magistrate had no discretion to reduce the fine. That turned out to be a lie, because when I explained to the magistrate that we hadn't received the warning letter, she considered that to be mitigating circumstances and reduced the fine from £170 to £100.

The nature of my complaint (first investigated and rejected by the council's internal complaints procedure) was firstly that they were unreasonably hasty in taking court action. To my mind, court action should be reserved for those deliberately avoiding payment and used as a last resort, not something to do instead of a reminder letter for someone whose only crime is to be a bit disorganised. If anyone at the council had engaged brain for even a minute, they would have realised that sending a reminder letter during a postal strike is unlikely to be effective. Apart from anything else, I'm sure that the whole process must have cost the council considerably more than the £100 they recovered as a fine, so not only are they being unreasonable, they are also wasting taxpayers' money.

The reply from the Ombudsman states that the council complied with the strict letter of the law (which is probably true, although I wonder what the burden of proof is here, as we only have the council's word for it that they sent the letter, I doubt that they could prove it), and it's not up to them to consider whether the council acted reasonably, only if the council acted within the law. Is that correct? And if so, is there any other part of the Local Government Act that the council might have broken here, for example some more general duty not to waste taxpayer's money?

The second part of my complaint was about the council staff lying to me about the procedure in the magistrates court. The ombudsman told me that she is only able to take action if I've suffered a loss as a result of the council's actions, and since I didn't believe them, I didn't suffer from their lying to me, and therefore the Ombudsman couldn't consider that part of the complaint. Is that right?

To be honest, I expect they've already made up their mind that the council are in the right and it won't matter what I say, but does anyone have any suggestions for anything that might at least have a slim chance of success?

Thanks
NM

[Ann]

Hello and welcome NautiusMaximus

The reply from the Ombudsman states that the council complied with the strict letter of the law

That's the damn reason why the LGO exist in the first place. Obviously Doc Martin hasn't yet realsised that! If they had broken the law you could have taken court action against the council instead of complaining to the LGO. Just because the council did not break the law does not mean they are not guilty of maladministration and the LGO should know this better than anyone.

The second part of my complaint was about the council staff lying to me about the procedure in the magistrates court. The ombudsman told me that she is only able to take action if I've suffered a loss as a result of the council's actions, and since I didn't believe them, I didn't suffer from their lying to me, and therefore the Ombudsman couldn't consider that part of the complaint. Is that right?

Yes, council staff can lie with impunity as long as no one suffers injustice as a result. Even if you do the LGO will usually ignore it anyway or at least find a way to get them off the hook. The LGO only investigate maladministration that leads to injustice. Although you could argue that whilst you didn't suffer any financial loss/injustice you suffered sense of outrage when you found out a council officer lied to you, or some other none-finacial injustice.

Good luck, others may be able to offer other ideas. Welcome to the strange world of the LGO, one in which a council watchdog sits idly whilst council officers lie to members of the public.

[Ann]

PS just read your post again. You don't have to suffer a loss, as the LGO told you, only an injustice. Another Doc Martin neewby slip up?

[Crazy C]

Hi there

You could not have arrived here at a better time.

I have been researching the whys and hows of council tax since 2005 and i have focused on liability orders and charges. So you have a basic understanding, here is the figures that relate to ct and LOs and there costs and charges at my council http://www.crazycouncil.co.uk/council-tax

You will be supprised how much your council make proffit from court action, and it will astound you what they pay from it.

I was gobsmacked that the council used a summons without any warning. We paid the overdue instalment the same day, and got in touch with the council asking that they withdraw the summons. They refused.

Reason, sucsessfull collection rate and the bonus scheme for CT officers.

Whats your council called. ?

Re the LGO, waste of time and recurses,

You may want to ask your district auditor ( audit commision ) his opinion on the apropreatness of not withdrawing your summons.

Out of your £ 170/100 fine the court only get approx £ 3. the council get the rest.

The reply from the Ombudsman states that the council complied with the strict letter of the law

This definatly remains to be seen at the moment.

[ABH]

This happens every time local authorities are given extra 'powers', they abuse them to increase revenue. Bin open a couple of inches, no warning and a fine for £80. Caught feeding the birds in the park, that's another £75 because it's technically littering. Best one to date is the fine they gave to a blind man walking his guide dog for not picking up his dog poo, how was he supposed to know let alone find it? In the good old days you would get a warning first but these days it's all about increasing revenue so the can pay their chief executive officers £150,000+ a year. I am old enough to remember when the public service served the public now the public serve the needs of the public service. In the good old days the bin man used to open the gate, walk up the path to collect the bin from the back of the house, empty the bin and then return it, if you were late with your rates you got a knock on the door to remind you and see if there was anything wrong. Nowadays you could be lying dead at the bottom of the stairs and the council would still be trying to take you to court so they could maximise revenue to pay bonuses.

[NautiusMaximus]

Many thanks for the support, folks.

Ann, your point about the LGO being there to deal with maladministration that falls short of breaking the law make perfect sense intuitively. There is certainly not much point in having the LGO if they can only act on things that the courts could act on anyway. However, the letter I received made it very clear that they were only interested in clear breaches of the law. To quote from the letter I received:

I appreciate that you feel this was heavy handed but I take the view that this was an action the Council was entitled to take and so I cannot criticise it.

Are they wrong about this? Is there any legislation or other official source I can quote that can tell them they are there to criticise councils for acting like jerks even if they don't break the law?

[shc]

First part of complaint.. no maladministration complied with law.. there are a lot of issues about Council's and magistrates courts [as well as LGO]. however.. technically is normally a Council Tax Court with a magistrate sub-contracted to serve the Council

Second part.. the Council is responsible for the acts of the staff the LGO can't get involved.

Third part the Council's complaints procedure. The Council's policy is here: http://www.merton.gov.uk/complaints/

relevant bits.. and is likely to be the best part of your complaint to pursue..

3.1 Complaints against staff
Complaints against staff can be initially made in any of the forms above, and will be treated as a Stage 1 complaint. However, if it is likely that the complaint will lead to disciplinary procedures against a staff member, the customer should be requested to put their complaint in writing for reasons of accuracy, and it will be treated as a Stage 2 complaint. In cases where customers may need support in putting the complaint in writing, staff should advise the customer where this can be found. Customers should be reminded of the time limit of 25 working days in which a request to escalate the complaint to the next stage should be made.

3.7 Constitutional and governance complaints
Complaints received by officers regarding allegations that officers or councillors have failed to act within the council’s constitution, or have failed to act with due legal or financial propriety in the performance of their duties, should be recorded as a Stage 2 complaint, but immediately passed to Legal Services, who will acknowledge the complaint and co-ordinate a response within statutory timetables. Further correspondence received by officers on such matters should be passed directly to Legal Services, who will record and acknowledge it.

Questions: did legal services respond.. were you escalated.. or did legal services put in writing that it was OK for a member of the Council's staff to lie..

In a tribunal recently a Council solicitor identified that the Council's Chief Exec.. and Head of Planning had submitted false documents to the LGO.. The LGO say so what...

[Ann]

Many thanks for the support, folks.

Ann, your point about the LGO being there to deal with maladministration that falls short of breaking the law make perfect sense intuitively. There is certainly not much point in having the LGO if they can only act on things that the courts could act on anyway. However, the letter I received made it very clear that they were only interested in clear breaches of the law. To quote from the letter I received:

I appreciate that you feel this was heavy handed but I take the view that this was an action the Council was entitled to take and so I cannot criticise it.

Are they wrong about this? Is there any legislation or other official source I can quote that can tell them they are there to criticise councils for acting like jerks even if they don't break the law?

Your quote from the LGO does not suggest that they are only interested in clear breaches of the law. If the council followed a process they are entitled to follow without maladministration then the LGO are right, they can't criticise it. Maladministration is basically doing something they shouldn't do or doing something they can but doing it wrongly. The impression I get from what the LGO have stated is that they may have been heavy handed but it doesn't constitute maladministration because they are entitled to do what they did in the way that they did it. Excluding the lying of course. The LGO are not there to criticise a council for acting like jerks only for maladministration.

by shc.. the Council is responsible for the acts of the staff the LGO can't get involved.

Yes they can, it's just that they can only find the council guilty of maladministration not an individual who works at the council. Maladministration can only be carried out by an individual or individuals. Suggesting that the LGO can't get involved for acts of council staff is nonsensical because they would not be able to get involved in any complaint of maladministration..

[shc]

by shc.. the Council is responsible for the acts of the staff the LGO can't get involved.

by anne Yes they can, it's just that they can only find the council guilty of maladministration not an individual who works at the council. Maladministration can only be carried out by an individual or individuals. Suggesting that the LGO can't get involved for acts of council staff is nonsensical because they would not be able to get involved in any complaint of maladministration.

.

agreed.. but to get to this stage you need to have been through the complaints process.. or have been refused access.. and the Council needs to be identified to be supporting its staff acting badly.. and saying so what.. in most cases they won't let a complainant with these problems near the complaints process (that is the maladministration)

[Crazy C]

Looks like your council only has one payment date in the month for council tax. Most have 3 1st, 15th, and last day.

Apparently the law requires them to send a reminder, but it doesn't require them to take any reasonable steps to satisfy themselves that the letter was delivered, so the council probably have been compliant with the strict letter of the law

Not sure about that, postal service can be relied on for a documents in most cases, but unless you have signed for it, or the postie has recorded putting it through your door, an not sure they can relie on it being served. I can not imagine it would be any different to taken court action for none payment of rent. You can serve the notices by post, but you still have to get them recorded in case the tenant challenges.

The nature of my complaint (first investigated and rejected by the council's internal complaints procedure) was firstly that they were unreasonably hasty in taking court action. To my mind, court action should be reserved for those deliberately avoiding payment and used as a last resort, not something to do instead of a reminder letter for someone whose only crime is to be a bit disorganised.

More a reflection of the competence employed at management level at your council. They seem to have just aimed at targets since 2004 regardless of the consequence to the cash cow ( us lot ). reason. Successful collection rate, bonus for CT/NNDR staff for not letting cases go over a month

If anyone at the council had engaged brain for even a minute

Your asking a bit much of your council there,

and it's not up to them to consider whether the council acted reasonably, only if the council acted within the law. Is that correct? And if so, is there any other part of the Local Government Act that the council might have broken here, for example some more general duty not to waste taxpayer's money

Audit commission, district auditor. Cipfa ( BVPI Figures )

The second part of my complaint was about the council staff lying to me about the procedure in the magistrates court.

Thats not unusual, unfortunately

To be honest, I expect they've already made up their mind that the council are in the right and it won't matter what I say,

Bingo

but does anyone have any suggestions for anything that might at least have a slim chance of success?

FOI act, find out the CT andf NNDR collection rate 2005-20010, LO rates,bailiffs cases and court collected fund. , the do the same for wages for the ct/nndr collection dept. Find the line manager that holds the top responsibility fo the dissision ( exec 151 officer ). ( give me a few days to look at it and can you be accurate with the dates of the due payment, letters and court action )

Make sure you do the above request before the LGO finishes there dissision. My advise use the wdtk.com site, make it nice and public. What your looking for is a discrepancy between the ammount of liability orders each year and the amount of cases sent to the bailiffs. if this discrepancy is constant over more than one year Then you need to complain to the auditor that your case has been handled this way to maintain the court collection fund,

i will add to this before Friday for you. let me have a proper look at the figures from your council.

[ABH]

The government has been pressuring councils to improve council tax collection rates and things are only going to get worse whilst the country is in such a bad state. At the end of the day it is a debtors responsibility to pay any money outstanding not a creditors responsibility to chase them for it. Although credit card firms don't use the courts, they don't have to because you have a contract with them, miss one payment and without further warning they slap you with a late payment fine.

[jaggers]

I wonder if anyone has any tips on what I might say?

Write to them and tell them their time limit is unreasonable, and request a further 4 weeks or whatever.

The LGO are generally a waste of time. You are unlikely to get the outcome you might expect or deserve. How much time do you want to spend on this?

You have to do some searching to find information (the council's website may be helpful) .

What is the council's policy and procedures on enforcement and collection of business rates? Have they complied with those procedures and policy?

What is the relevant legislation? What Act of Parliament and/or Statutory Instrument?

The Act will often say what constitutes issuing a notice - it may be recorded delivery.

DON'T BELIEVE WHAT COUNCIL OFFICERS OR THE LGO TELL YOU. THEY WILL WILLFULLY MISREPRESENT FACTS OR THE TRUTH.

If a council officer lied to you about court procedures, that is maladministration. The LGO should acknowledge this.

The problem is that the LGO like to cover up maladministration, and rarely pursue a case where there has been no injustice.

Why not contact Ombudsman Watchers and they will publish your story.

http://www.ombudsmanwatchers.org.uk/

[Ann]

Just received a tweet from http://twitter.com/lgowatcher that none tweet receiving forum readers may be interested in.

This is the forum post the Local Government Ombudsman was interested in reading

http://is.gd/dbn27

This very thread.

[NautiusMaximus]

Questions: did legal services respond.. were you escalated.. or did legal services put in writing that it was OK for a member of the Council's staff to lie..

I went through all 3 stages of the council's complaints procedure, the final one being to the Chief Exec of the council. The response on the unduly hasty court action bit was basically "we sent the warning letter, and if you didn't get it then tough titty" (not quite in those words, but that was definitely the gist).

As for the council staff lying to me, they took a pretty relaxed attitude. They simply said that the advice was given in good faith and wasn't a deliberate attempt to mislead. So they haven't said it's OK to lie, but that it's OK for them not to know what they're talking about.

[NautiusMaximus]

The LGO are generally a waste of time. You are unlikely to get the outcome you might expect or deserve. How much time do you want to spend on this?

Well there's the thing. I've spent way too much time on this already. I shall take the time to reply to their letter, making any such points as I think might help (which they probably won't anyway, by the sounds of it), but I really can't spend any more. While it might be interesting to do all the FOI stuff, sadly I really don't have the time.

Anyway, thanks very much for all the suggestions anyone, much appreciated.

[ABH]

Well there's the thing. I've spent way too much time on this already. I shall take the time to reply to their letter, making any such points as I think might help (which they probably won't anyway, by the sounds of it), but I really can't spend any more. While it might be interesting to do all the FOI stuff, sadly I really don't have the time.

Exactly what the LGO and Council want you to do, exactly what 99% or complainants do and the main reason why the injustice will continue.

[Crazy C]

Exactly what the LGO and Council want you to do, exactly what 99% or complainants do and the main reason why the injustice will continue.

It seems to be the main purpose of the LGO to beat the the life out of complainats by dragging things on and mixing up there interpritation of there law and there own regulations.

Dear Naut. do you take an interest, if someone diggs about for the data for you, will you persue it. It may take a month and a half to get it, some of the stuff that the contributers have said on here can be a little complex to understand, and you can feel a little out of depth. ( I think we have all bin in this position to start with )

We were all pissed of complainants to start with, all wandering how on earth the council/lgo monkeys acted in the way they did against us. Trust me, the more you understand about there operation, how the LGO and council just back up each other lies, and how they treat your concerns without any dignity or understanding, the worse you feel you have been treat. I wish i would have foud this fourum before i went to the lgo.

ABH is bang on right, if you dont challange them management that decideds to farm the public for court fees, what might them same council exec do if they engage there brains for anothr part of your council operations.

Pressing this through the councils takes time, you can treat it like a hobby, it can also be quite rewarding and give you a good feeling when you start battering them down.

[NautiusMaximus]

Aw heck, you're right. Giving in is indeed JUST WHAT THEY WANT ME TO DO.

Encouraged by those thoughts, I shall indeed spend a little more time on this. I shall start by responding to the LGO and requesting more time to reply. They indicated that that would be OK if I needed it.

Next step, I guess, is to get onto the council with an FOI request to find out all about their enforcement policy, incentives for taking court action, etc. Could any of you knowledgeable folk be kind enough to put together a list of exactly what I should ask for? A couple of the posts above seem to have made a great start on that already, but if we could agree on one consensus-based list, that would be very helpful.

Let's fight the bastards!

[ABH]

George is the man you need.

Let's fight the bastards!

PS: You really must stop showering the LGO with compliments.

[Crazy C]

Hi Maximus

I will do an foi of your council this weekend to get the figures around council tax.

Have you got the dates of the action to hand, need to know how long between missing a payment and taking action ?

[NautiusMaximus]

Hi George

Thanks so much!

OK, here are the details. We missed the payment that was due on 1 January 2010. They sent the summons on 1 February 2010 (we paid the overdue instalment on the same day we received the summons).

We were also late with our instalment that was due on 1 October 2009, and paid it on 5 November 2009. The council claim that they sent a reminder on 9 November 2009 (guess they don't check for payments every day), saying that we needed to pay the full amount outstanding (ie for the whole of the rest of the year, not just the next instalment) and that if we didn't then they would take action without any further warning. However, we never received that reminder (you may recall that there was a postal strike around that time).

They also claim that they sent two reminders for late payments earlier in the year, although we never received either. Apart from the 2 payments above, we made all our payments in the month they were due, although admittedly not necessarily on the same day. Never had any idea until we got the summons that missing payment date by a week or two was such a problem.

Anything else you need to know?

Thanks again

NM

[ABH]

You need to complain to your councillor about the over zealous nature of your council's debt collection regime. As I understand council tax law, it if you miss a payment a council can legally enforce payment for the whole year not just for the outstanding debt. You may not like what they have done but it is down to councillors to determine how zealously they enforce the statutory rules regarding none or late payment of council tax.

[jaggers]

Earlier this year, as a result of an oversight, we were late paying an instalment of our business rates (by about 4 weeks).

This topic relates to late payment of business rates.

Council tax and business rates are not the same, and the legislation (rules and regulations) relating to them are different.

[ABH]

You are right the rules are a lot tighter for business rates and businesses have less reasons for late payment or none payment than council tax payers do.

[Crazy C]

Earlier this year, as a result of an oversight, we were late paying an instalment of our business rates (by about 4 weeks).

This topic relates to late payment of business rates. Council tax and business rates are not the same, and the legislation (rules and regulations) relating to them are different ?.

The initial collections can be different, s;ightly different rules, But i think the process rules are the same, Both relate to a debt and there for follow ct regulations from enforment to liability orders. I have experiance with this, at least with my council and court. all the markers with the regulators are the same for both CT an d NNDR

NautiusMaximus - thats exactly what i needed. Were your payment worked out on a ten month or twelve month plan by the council ( 10 i presume ). If thats correct, then your Jan payment would have been the last you owe untill 1 April . I will email you later tonight with the details, if them dates are right, they can not charge you on top. If you pay befoe court they can not proceed with the summons,

Feb is the date that your council have to finalise the BVPI arkers that relate to the audit commission for that financial year.

[NautiusMaximus]

Oops, just realise I've been letting the grass grow on this one, and I now only have until Friday to respond to their provisional conclusions.

So, any more tips on what to say?

[Tonto]

What's the point, when you can't be bothered to act on advice given!

[NautiusMaximus]

Probably none, Tonto.

Sadly, I've simply been too busy to give this the attention it deserves.

[ABH]

Which may also explain the initial problem with your tax.

The details of the complaint are as follows. Earlier this year, as a result of an oversight, we were late paying an instalment of our business rates (by about 4 weeks).